T595 Not Starting

Discussion in 'Technical Help' started by Bernie, Oct 4, 2017.

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  1. Bernie

    Bernie Member

    Oct 4, 2017
    32
    18
    Kingsbridge, Devon
    Hi all. My '98 T595 has developed this fault. I've owned it for 4mths and covered 500 miles or so. It always had what I thought was an iffy starter button. It needed a firm press and the starter would kick in with a small delay. Recently it refused all together. Tried bumping it but not a bloody chance, lots of skidding. I could hear the relay under the seat clicking and bike has new battery so bought new starter solenoid but still same issue. Bought what I thought was new genuine Triumph "change over" relay but still same issue. Relay clicks but no starter. Plz help..
     
  2. Sprinter

    Sprinter Kinigit

    Aug 17, 2014
    6,027
    1,000
    uk
    Starting System Symptoms:

    Weak battery symptoms:
    -- Slow cranking.
    -- Stops cranking suddenly on compression stroke with button pressed.
    -- Starts when starter button is released at end of cranking.
    Repair:
    -- Charge/Test/Replace battery.
    Failure Modes:
    -- Loss of capacity. Appears to charge, voltage good but no reserve for starting.
    -- Won't hold a charge.
    -- Low voltage/cell failure.
    Preventative Maintenance:
    -- Check fluid levels regularly
    -- Maintain full charge: Regular riding, trickle charger.

    Ignition Coil failure symptoms:
    -- Hard starting/misfiring during cranking.
    -- Rough idle that can't be tuned out with carb adjustments and carb cleaning.
    -- Idle misfire clears with new sparkplugs, returns in a few hundred miles
    Repair:
    -- Replace: Preferably with Nology for higher reliability than stock Gill coils.
    Failure Mode:
    -- Shorted turns in secondary resulting in weak spark.
    Preventative Maintenance:
    -- None
    Testing:

    Pickup Coil failure symptoms:
    -- No spark at all
    -- Spark quits with engine hot, returns when engine cool.
    -- Note: Pickup coil failure is total. There is no random misfire spark loss.
    Repair:
    -- Replace pickup coil
    Failure mode:
    -- Thermal intermittant with long (15-30 minute) period.
    Preventative Maintenance:
    -- None. Get a spare.
    Testing:
    -- Ohms checks hot and cold.

    Worn starter symptoms:
    -- Sometimes won't crank until the bike is rocked in gear.
    -- Excessively noisy cranking with a grinding sound.
    -- Click from under seat but no cranking.
    Failure Mode:
    -- Brush wear progressing to commutator damage.
    -- Bearing failure related to brush wear.
    Repair:
    -- Rebuild or replace.
    Preventative Maintenance:
    -- Maintan battery in peak condition.
    -- Follow proper starting procedures. Neutral, clutch in.
    -- Crank 5-10 seconds at a time max., switch off for twice as long before cranking again.

    Worn sprag clutch symptoms:
    -- Very loud rattling when cranking
    -- Starter spins but engine doesn't turn
    Falure Mode:
    -- Breakage
    Repair:
    -- Replace sprag clutch
    Preventative Maintenance:
    -- Maintain battery in peak condition.
    -- Follow proper starting procedures. Neutral, clutch in.

    Worn starter solenoid:
    -- Click from under seat but no cranking.
    -- Won't crank after rocking bike.
    -- Starter continues to run after bike starts and won't stop until the battery is disconnected.
    Failure mode:
    -- Internal contact damage resulting in non-conduction.
    -- Internal contact damage resulting in contacts welding shut.
    -- Internal damage/wear prevents solenoid core movement.
    Preventative Maintenance:
    -- None.
    Repair:
    -- Replace starter solenoid.
    Testing:
    -- For no cranking, short across solenoid high-power terminals. Normal operation denotes failed solenoidcontacts.

    ------------------
     
    • Like Like x 3
  3. Bernie

    Bernie Member

    Oct 4, 2017
    32
    18
    Kingsbridge, Devon
    Wow cheers for that comprehensive reply! Well I guess it's the starter then as I have new battery, relay and solenoid..... damm. Looks like a fair job to replace. Any tips for sourcing a new starter?
     
  4. Oldyam

    Oldyam Grumpy Old Git

    May 14, 2017
    613
    500
    ireland
    Don't just assume because the parts are new one cant be faulty ! check through the system to verify everything else is working .......

    Is the battery fully charged ?
    Did you check the voltage when the start button is pressed ?
    Have you tried shorting the big contacts on the starter solenoid ?
    A starter is expensive so I would check everything else first !!
     
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  5. Sprinter

    Sprinter Kinigit

    Aug 17, 2014
    6,027
    1,000
    uk
    can you hot wire the starter to see if it runs?
     
  6. Tigcraft

    Tigcraft Unheard of Member

    Mar 29, 2014
    2,576
    800
    Holmfirth West Yorkshire
    James, you've too much time on your hands. I can see now why buses are never on time!!
     
    • Funny Funny x 3
  7. Bernie

    Bernie Member

    Oct 4, 2017
    32
    18
    Kingsbridge, Devon
    Been reading the forums and it seams this is a common issue. Thanks for the help. I'll run all the relative checks and let you know the results.
     
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  8. Sprinter

    Sprinter Kinigit

    Aug 17, 2014
    6,027
    1,000
    uk
    Just a cut and paste Ive got that one bookmarked its too handy to loose. My bus is always on time ( last run anyway)
     
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  9. Bernie

    Bernie Member

    Oct 4, 2017
    32
    18
    Kingsbridge, Devon
    Ok then. So had a couple of hours this morning. Battery fully charged - 12.8v. So new solenoid, new relay. The bike had started off the button once after I fitted the solenoid as a check. Blanked off the alarm as fob battery dying and a pain in the arse. Engine turns shorting the solenoid and of course then shorting the starter. But off the button all I get is the relay click.
    So if I disconnect the clutch switch do the wires to the ecu need to be open or closed?
    Same with the side stand switch?
    Does any one else run with these disabled?
    Also the alarm blank is just wires 1 and 2 bridged. Is this Ok?
    Cheers muchly for all and any help
     
  10. Oldyam

    Oldyam Grumpy Old Git

    May 14, 2017
    613
    500
    ireland
    I don't have a wiring diagram but I would guess both of those switches should be closed with the sidestand up and the clutch lever pulled in, but, your best bet is to disconnect them and check the switches with a multimeter.

    note :- the sidestand switch may be 3 wire so you will need to check which of the 3 wires are connected

    You could also have a fault in the neutral light circuit too so check the operation of that too.

    If the wires go direct into the ecu it depends on how the ecu was programmed so you may have to try the clutch switch in the open position, but sort out the sidestand switch first
     
  11. Bernie

    Bernie Member

    Oct 4, 2017
    32
    18
    Kingsbridge, Devon
    Cheers Oldyam
    This is where I start to stretch my confidence and abilities somewhat. I can check continuity with 2 wires, 3 will get me head scratching and hurting. Electrics hurt my head at the best of times. I'll have a go in a bit.
    So lets assume both switches are ok, what then?
     
  12. Bernie

    Bernie Member

    Oct 4, 2017
    32
    18
    Kingsbridge, Devon
    Ok have good continuity at clutch lever switch and it switches between closed and open ok.
    Side stand is 3 wires and not sure what to do there. Also not sure how that switch would cause this fault. Even if the switch failed the bike is in neutral so would make no difference surely?
     
  13. Oldyam

    Oldyam Grumpy Old Git

    May 14, 2017
    613
    500
    ireland
    No sorry ............... don't assume anything ....... otherwise we will end up chasing our tails and missing something obvious

    Disconnect the two plugs and check the wiring to the switches , not ino the bikes wiring loom
    if you check the clutch switch first its 2 wires and without touching the lever check for continuity, then check for continuity with the clutch lever pulled in to the bars ....... tell us what you get

    then with the sidestand up ( in the riding position ) check the wires in the plug with your meter there should be continuity between 2 of the wires, then pull the sidestand down and check again tell us what you get.

    it could be a faulty switch or even a broken wire so work logically it will be easier for us and you to follow
     
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  14. Oldyam

    Oldyam Grumpy Old Git

    May 14, 2017
    613
    500
    ireland
    because the sidestand can cut either the ignition spark or stop the starter motor turning when in the down position and I'm not sure which.

    You could also be in the situation that you can start the bike with the sidestand down and the clutch pulled in but not in gear.

    Putting the bike in gear with the sidestand down will kill the engine on most bikes even with the clutch pulled in ...... as a safety to stop you riding off with the stand down
     
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  15. Sprinter

    Sprinter Kinigit

    Aug 17, 2014
    6,027
    1,000
    uk
    #15 Sprinter, Oct 13, 2017
    Last edited: Oct 13, 2017
    3 wires on the side stand would suggest a connection to gear lever, so it will cut out if in gear with stand down.
    Are you sure 12 .8 is enough to turn over bike, its an exact figure or it wont move try adding another battery in line.
    The delay you spoke about could be a sign of the current bridging a small gap ( loose connection) which has now grown to big to jump.


    http://www.dansmc.com/cdiignition.htm
     
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  16. capt

    capt Elite Member

    May 8, 2016
    3,052
    750
    western Australia
    Try pulling switch block apart and clean the contact surfaces, they can develop an almost invisible film which stops current flow ! It can show up as intermittent starting or failure to start full stop, there is nothing wrong with anything else in the circuitry !!
     
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  17. Bernie

    Bernie Member

    Oct 4, 2017
    32
    18
    Kingsbridge, Devon
    Wow! Again mucho thanko for the responses. I'll follow all advice to the letter and post the results. To be honest I'm really hoping to find one of these switches to be at fault.
     
  18. Bernie

    Bernie Member

    Oct 4, 2017
    32
    18
    Kingsbridge, Devon
    Ok. So clutch in = continuity
    Out = no continuity
    Sidestand up = continuity between outer 2 wires
    Down = no continuity on any wires.
    Engine turns over jumping from battery to solenoid and also direct to starter.
    I'm now lost.....
     
  19. Bernie

    Bernie Member

    Oct 4, 2017
    32
    18
    Kingsbridge, Devon
    Also the bike will not start now even though it turns over fine with a fully charged new battery.
     
  20. Sprinter

    Sprinter Kinigit

    Aug 17, 2014
    6,027
    1,000
    uk
    Guess. The side stand should let you start with the stand down ( not in gear) so if you have no continuity is that the problem?
     
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