Non Starting T100 Bonnie 2017

Discussion in 'Newbies Hangout' started by Hamro, Aug 21, 2018.

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  1. Rocker

    Rocker Elite Member

    May 1, 2016
    1,662
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    Suffolk
    I think you should try triumph directly again and tell them it's not fit for purpose and quote this act https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/consumer-rights-act-2015/consumer-rights-act-2015 I'm sure they'll change their tune have a read, also mention of the appalling service you have received from said dealer and your very wealthy biker mates who won't be using their services ever either:mad:
     
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  2. Callumity

    Callumity Elite Member

    Feb 25, 2017
    3,358
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    Nr Biggar
    Starter relay might be ‘lazy’. Cheap, fast, easy swap.
     
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  3. Hamro

    Hamro New Member

    Aug 20, 2018
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    Sturminster Marshall
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  4. Hamro

    Hamro New Member

    Aug 20, 2018
    16
    3
    Sturminster Marshall
    Thanks for your comments regarding the consumer rights act which I have already mentioned to Triumph. Unfortunately as I purchased the bike privately I have no claim against a dealer. Whether I could use “not fit for purpose” against Triumph again I am not sure but I will investigate.
     
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  5. Rocker

    Rocker Elite Member

    May 1, 2016
    1,662
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    Suffolk
    Are no slightly different but surely it's still in warranty
     
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  6. Callumity

    Callumity Elite Member

    Feb 25, 2017
    3,358
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    Nr Biggar
    This problem is irritating but soluble. We just need to understand the EXACT symptoms. Your descriptions so far are a bit ‘thin’. Is this one of the last 865 Efi bikes or the 900 water cooled successor?
    We need to know:
    Does turning on the ignition ALWAYS result in lights, speedo sweep etc., irrespective of whether it then starts or not?
    Have you noticed a more reliable outcome with neutral selected and sidestand up and clutch out?
    Is the failure simply zero and silent response to the starter button? Do you hear a click?
    What % of no starts do you get?
    Has the battery been load tested? If it is in marginal condition it could be the issue.
    Does the bike start reliably from jump leads or still act up?
    How do you start it at all? Perseverance?!

    I am not sure how mechanically minded you are but often the dealer’s mechanics are more in the nature of fitters - better at replacing bits than solving problems.
    Simplistically you effectively have 3 circuits in your bike’s electrics:
    Accessories
    Ignition
    Starter
    The first two are always on when you switch on.

    The third only operates when the starter is depressed. It has a relay (an electrically energised switch) that cuts headlight power and feeds the starter motor instead. It is the relay that audibly clicks as it feeds the starter. They are generic parts common to most vehicles and £3 to £5 from any auto factor. You get the odd duff one.

    There are three safety lockouts to prevent inadvertent launch! There is a gearbox switch that detects neutral, a clutch switch in the lever and a sidestand switch. The switches act in concert so if you pull in the clutch it overrides the gearbox and you can start in gear. The sidestand switch kills the ignition if the stand is down and you engage gear. If any of them stick then they can inhibit the starter and ignition.

    So, to recap, we need a very precise description of what is and is not working up to the failure to start to eliminate and narrow down the possibilities.

    Finally you bought the bike privately? Triumph’s warranty covers manufacturing defects not breakdowns unless it can be shown the latter was caused by the former and that needs a solid diagnosis/fix. Are there any signs the previous owner fiddled, had 5 thumbs, rounded bolt heads etc., that might indicate interference?

    If we cannot come up with a solid diagnosis my strong advice would be to buy a manual (for its wiring diagrams) then ring a mobile auto electrician. It will be worth it to be mobile by spring.

    Give us a detailed description plus your own skill level and we will try to fathom this out.
     
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  7. Adie P

    Adie P Crème de la Crème

    Jul 7, 2018
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    I can't disagree with a single word of that and find it all very helpful, practical and useful - hopefully the OP feels the same.

    However, I MUST say that everything you say here is (IMHO) EXACTLY what 3X should have been doing on each of the occasions it's had the bike back and, moreover, THEY are the ones that should be calling in the auto-electrician's (or the factory) when they realise that they aren't actually addressing the source, rather than the symptoms, of the problem!

    I'd be utterly horrified - and very angry - to think any of my motorcycles would be simply left outside my house without my express permission, and the keys put through the door - that, I'm afraid, is rank stupidity, though they might have claimed that nobody would have stolen the damned thing because they wouldn't get it started!!

    I think a VERY strongly worded letter to a senior manager in Triumph, copied to the owner/manager of Three Cross would be the first stage of my approach to the problem. Triumph provide a warranty for a reason - this is a classic example of that reason - regardless of the eventual, actual source of the failure.

    My 10p.

    Regards,


    Adie
     
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  8. Hamro

    Hamro New Member

    Aug 20, 2018
    16
    3
    Sturminster Marshall
    Thanks so much for your input. The bike is a 2017 water cooled 900 t100. I have had bikes most of my life starting in the 60s with a bsa c15 and Triumph Speed Twin. So I am not bad usually at sorting minor problems although I am getting long in the tooth for crawling around things these days. The problem occurs about 1 in 6 starts although it is random, simply put, ignition on, clutch in, lights come up, instruments sweep, press starter and nothing. Have to say, I have not noticed whether there is a click from the starter relay as I normally have my helmet on. I have checked battery volts, 12.8. My gut feeling is it could be the relay.

    There are no signs or paperwork, that the previous owner has had work done, other than the first service, the bike was returned to the dealer when it was only a few days old as he had warning lights coming up.



    Thanks for your help
     
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  9. Hamro

    Hamro New Member

    Aug 20, 2018
    16
    3
    Sturminster Marshall
    Thanks so much for your input. The bike is a 2017 water cooled 900 t100. I have had bikes most of my life starting in the 60s with a bsa c15 and Triumph Speed Twin. So I am not bad usually at sorting minor problems although I am getting long in the tooth for crawling around things these days. The problem occurs about 1 in 6 starts although it is random, simply put, ignition on, clutch in, lights come up, instruments sweep, press starter and nothing. If I then switch ignition off and on and repeat the procedure it fires up fine, although sometimes you need to switch on and off twice. Have to say, I have not noticed whether there is a click from the starter relay as I normally have my helmet on. I have checked battery volts, 12.8. My gut feeling is it could be the relay.

    There are no signs or paperwork, that the previous owner has had work done, other than the first service, the bike was returned to the dealer when it was only a few days old as he had warning lights coming up.



    Thanks for your help
     
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  10. Hamro

    Hamro New Member

    Aug 20, 2018
    16
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    Sturminster Marshall
     
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  11. Callumity

    Callumity Elite Member

    Feb 25, 2017
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    Nr Biggar
    #31 Callumity, Nov 6, 2018
    Last edited: Nov 6, 2018
    OK. Your problem HAS to be one or a combination of:

    A dud battery - even newish ones can die of abuse, manufacturing defect, neglect. If it is marginal in its output the ECU may read it as flat and refuse to play. Whip it out and down to a local garage who can load test it. This is not a voltage reading (potentially misleading) but an indication of the amps it is putting out. If you have a multimeter then check voltage ignition on. The headlight load should be enough. You want to still see about 12.4/12.5 V

    A faulty earth. Check the strap on the engine underside AND the battery post.

    Starter motor issue. Check voltage at the motor +ve post to the frame with ignition on, starter depressed. If you have voltage your starter motor is faulty......or maybe just a lazy starter solenoid.

    Starter relay. Park up where the headlight is reflected or position a mirror and look for starter on, lights out. If the light stays on and the starter fails to turn.......

    Beyond that, if you have your multimeter or bulb you can trace power from starter button to relay and relay to motor plus the motor Earth.

    Conceptually this is not too tricky. Ignore the plate and concentrate on each strand of spaghetti.......the intermittent faults are always the worst. Somewhere you have a dry connection or a dodgy component. You can do worse that squirt each switch from clutch, sidestand, ignition, starter etc., with electrical contact cleaner.
     
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  12. Hamro

    Hamro New Member

    Aug 20, 2018
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    Thanks for that Adie,
    Well I have been in touch with a senior Manager at Triumph( UK AFTER SALES MANAGER) he basically said it has to be dealt with by a dealer and if I don’t think much of 3x then take it somewhere else. I originally wrote to the Triumph CEO, Nick Bloor, he did not even reply. When I was in business we used to say you could measure a company’s attitude to customer care by the response of the senior management!
    I am dealing with the after sales manager at 3x but he does not respond to emails and generally gives an impression of not really being bothered. I am seeking the Director contact but not sure whether that will bring any better response. Therefore I am going down the route of trying other means of solving the problem, that’s why the forum is so helpful.
     
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  13. Adie P

    Adie P Crème de la Crème

    Jul 7, 2018
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    I can clearly see your dilemma (and feel your pain!) if Triumph themselves aren't playing fair, either. You're not in a good place ...... in more ways than one. The next nearest Triumph dealership to you is quite a journey away and they probably wouldn't be too happy to hear the full story behind your bike's errant behaviour, so getting another dealer on board might prove difficult.

    We have simillar views on business but, regrettably, I believe they (mine?) are as outdated as some of my riding gear! Business is business and turnover/profit is biased towards volume sales and not customer satisfaction ratings, and nowhere more so than in automotive (of all kinds!) which is almost counter-intuitive in an age of very fast and widespread public communications.

    Following Callumity's excellent information and advice seems a good way to proceed from here but I certainly wouldn't abandon the idea of getting the bike back to 3X for a proper resolution to the problem if this doesn't result in a long term solution. In fact, I'd phone and try to book it back in now - if you fix it in the meantime you can always cancel the booking! The bike may well need new parts (the handlebar switch clusters on a couple of Triumph models are reknowned for their faults and failures) so I would certainly be making a very strong written case to the Director(s) at 3X and ensuring that copies of your letters are sent to Triumph's UK After Sales Manager.

    I can only wish you luck and a swift resolution to the problem. I'm sure you'll let us know how you get on.

    Regards,


    Adie
     
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  14. Hamro

    Hamro New Member

    Aug 20, 2018
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    Well to say I am disillusioned with Triumph and their dealer is an understatement. My bike has now been with the dealer for 4 weeks, and this is the fifth time since July. They appear to have replaced most electric parts under the guidance of Triumph but apparently the frequency of non starting has actually got worst. They have now given up and all Triumph can say is that is up to the dealer to sort it out, although Michael Niblet,UK After Sales Manager originally said he would resolve it. Anyway, now without the bike and over £7k out of pocket to boot. Problem is I brought the bike privately and assumed the warranty was worth something.
    Anyway thanks to those who offered advice and sorry to depress you all with my story at Xmas.
    Good news is I brought my old Yamaha xv1100 back and that starts first time every time despite its age of 21 years.

    I understand modern T100s and T120 do suffer from random electrical faults but you would think they could be sorted! Enjoy you rides.
     
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  15. Angus

    Angus Noble Member

    Mar 19, 2017
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    South Africa
    Hamro this is really a mistery and I can only imagine how frustrated you must be by now. I too bought mine privately, also a 2017 model and my hair stands up reading this. Cant the dealer where it’s at try a different wire harness and then start from the front top, down and back following the basics principles of spark, fuel and air to find the culprit that’s causing it not to start ? Callumity raised very good points, doing these things in sequence must rule out working components and steer you straight to the culprit. Is the dealer documenting what they have done thus far ?
     
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  16. joe mc donald

    Subscriber

    Dec 26, 2014
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    Hamro
    Firstly welcome to the Family. My 1200 had similar problems. I took it to Bulldog Triumph in Winersh. They had the bike for a week and it turned out to be a faulty connection on one of the plugs. It was a 2017 as well. But it never faltered after they looked at it. If it had of I would rode it back to Triumph and invited MCN to ask them why.
    Ride Free
    Joe
     
  17. Hamro

    Hamro New Member

    Aug 20, 2018
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    Sturminster Marshall
    Thanks for your replies. Did I mention I also wrote to Nick Bloor CEO Triumph, no reply, the MD of Three Cross motorcycles, also no reply. I have now tried BBC watchdog and Trading Standards. As a last resort I will try a Solicitor to see if it is worth taking legal action.
     
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  18. Eldon

    Eldon Elite Member

    Nov 14, 2018
    4,267
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    North Yorkshire
    Pity your not near our neck of the woods or i would have had a look for you :p
    What you need is someone who is confident, competent and analytical with a multimeter. With it being intermittent it adds to the frustration but with hindsight, once solved, it will all make logical sense (to a technical person).

    A friend with a 675 2009 had a similar issue and it was the starter relay but due to loss of confidence we took a spare new battery to the Manx GP just in case. A fellow camper on a 600 Bandit couldn't believe his luck when I told him midweek we had it and didn't now need it. His battery had failed spoiling his week the night before :)
     
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  19. curly

    curly Noble Member

    Jul 3, 2016
    758
    443
    Burton Upon Trent
    What a mess.
    You are clearly at rock bottom.
    Time to bite the bullet and spend a few quid I think.
    I would now ask about / do some research to identify a competent auto electrician.
    Detail the issue to said auto electrician and leave the bike with him/her.
    What harm can this do, it might just fix the damn thing!
    Just my opinion, but I know less than nothing about auto electrics and many other things besides.
    Best of luck mate
    Curly
     
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  20. Hamro

    Hamro New Member

    Aug 20, 2018
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    3
    Sturminster Marshall
    Thanks for that Curly. Trouble is the bike is now stuck at the dealer, where it’s been for the past month. A few weeks ago they said they were returning it to Triumph but apparently they refused to take it back, presumably felt it would compromise their position. Anyway what appears to be happening now is that the dealer changes a part under the direction of Triumph and when that doesn’t work changes another part, but apparently has to wait for the part to come from Triumph. The dealer has also said the non starting issue has got worse. As I understand it has now had the following,
    Ignition Switch
    Starter Switch
    ECU
    Battery
    Starter Relay

    They are now going to replace the side stand switch and if that doesn’t work the clutch switch. Not so much diagnosis as desperation! Shocking lack of service by Triumph but I try not to let it get me down, I am too long in the tooth for that.
     
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