1967/1969 Bonnie Rebuild Desert Sled Project - Any Advice

Discussion in 'Vintage Classics' started by Sundance, Sep 15, 2021.

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  1. speedrattle

    speedrattle Senior Member

    Feb 19, 2021
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    #61 speedrattle, Nov 25, 2021
    Last edited: Nov 26, 2021
    on the tappets, the R is ground to a 1 1/8-inch radius, and the standard to 3/4-inch. they give different durations and accelleration as a result, so you should have all of the same kind. i have read that the T120 came with R tappets 1966 -on.

    are you keeping the cams? what do the lobes look like? in a perfect world you would not put a different tappet onto a lobe that had worn-in to a previous one. but people do it all the time and i suggest you get hold of an R intake tappet to replace that standard one.

    if you end up buying new cams you can have the tappets refaced. i think the standard cut is 0.010, or at least thats what ionce measured onsome
     
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  2. Sundance

    Sundance Well-Known Member

    Aug 2, 2021
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    I was thinking that I would keep the cams, but may have to replace the tappets. I know this may be elemental - but how do I determine if the cams are ok? There doesn't seem to be much injury to the lobes. Since one of the tappets doesn't have the "R" designation, I was thinking I would need to replace them.

    On another issue, that of balancing the crankshaft - is this necessary? I have to decide on another cylinder and pistons, leaning towards a Morgo 750. Since they come with matched pistons, would I still need to have the crankshaft balanced? If so, any suggestions?
     
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  3. speedrattle

    speedrattle Senior Member

    Feb 19, 2021
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    look at tbe cam journals. are they scored, pitted, or flaking? same test on the cam lobes, as well as uneven wear. youre looking for depatures from smooth, even wear.

    on the tappet faces, look for the same problems. does any metal look smeared?

    you can measure the cams to see if theyre worn unevenly, but as far as i know there are no specs about absolute wear. someone else may have something to say.

    balancing is more of an art than a science, in my opinion. youre doing more than eveni g out weights. by adding or removing metal to the crankshaft itself you can change the direction of the vibration, and how severe it is, to some degree. i didnt balance my morgo when i installed it, and im happy with it. i did have my race crank balanced, and it vibrates ludicrously at idle but smooths out at speed. sort of.
     
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  4. speedrattle

    speedrattle Senior Member

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  5. Sundance

    Sundance Well-Known Member

    Aug 2, 2021
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    Very cool! Thank you, I had not discovered that bit. Someone said if I use the rods I should replace the bolts. I’m not sure why, except perhaps they stretch a bit and this could impact their strength? On other build videos when re-using rods I have not heard this before. The bolts I have are quite clean, no damage that I can see.

    I’m still “pondering” the need to balance my motor’s crankshaft dynamically. Do you happen to know if these engines had their crankshafts dynamically balanced from the factory?
     
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  6. darkman

    darkman Crème de la Crème

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    Triumphs twins over the years all used various balancing percentages to smooth out the riding experience and it was down which worked best with the frame design at the time, on 650 units they arrived at 85%. Personally i never balance cranks unless asked as they will all vibrate somewhere in the rev range. I always use new rods and bolts when building a engine but if asked by the customer to use the old rods i recommend new bolts, i also de nib/bur old rods and polish them.
     
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  7. speedrattle

    speedrattle Senior Member

    Feb 19, 2021
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    #67 speedrattle, Dec 1, 2021
    Last edited: Dec 1, 2021
    use new bolts. the bolts have a finite life because each time they are torqued they stretch a bit and then return when undone. but never quite all the way.

    eventually you will have a bolt that stretches a bit too easily. when correctly tightened up it will still stretch under load and loosen. then it can unscrew or allow the bearing clearance to grow with a resulting failure.

    i dont use a torque wrench on rod bolts. i measure bolt length with a micrometer and use a fixture with a dial indicator to tighten them to a pre-determined stretch. once their relaxed length is a certain amount over their original length-- 0.005 inches for my ARP bolts-- the manufactuter recommends replacing them.

    i dont do that. i blew up a record setting motor at 131mph because i had re-used thr rod bolts. four bolts cost about US$80, but now i use them one time and then just throw them away. i suspect rod bolts are one of the most highly stressed components in the engine, and one of the most expensive if they fail.
     
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  8. Sundance

    Sundance Well-Known Member

    Aug 2, 2021
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    Thank you darkman. I appreciate you sharing your experience. I was wondering about the benefit of new rods when considering everything else I am replacing. I will already be using a new cylinder and pistons and push rods. So perhaps it is smart to change the rods also.
     
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  9. Sundance

    Sundance Well-Known Member

    Aug 2, 2021
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    OK, thanks for the detail on what happens to rod bolts and why they should be changed. Since I am also replacing several other items like cylinder, pistons, pushrods, (along with a head rebuild), it may be smart for me to go ahead and replace the rods - as I have no idea about what happened to this engine that is stopped running. It seems from some of your previous comments on the photos of my pistons that it may have seized once or twice. Perhaps that wasn't too good for the rods either.
     
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  10. speedrattle

    speedrattle Senior Member

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    #70 speedrattle, Dec 1, 2021
    Last edited: Dec 1, 2021
    rod bolts are cheap, considering

    [​IMG]

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    [​IMG]

    you can also make an argument that old aluminum rods should be replaced, as darkman said earlier. aluminum rods have a finite number of stress cycles before they fail. if the rod has been wrung-out to a high rpm or abused, then the number of cycles is decreased. with an old machine, you never know how close the rods are to failure until you measure, and the only way to do that is to take em out and measure the big end concentricity.

    steel rods do not suffer this limit. something like the MAP steel rods will happily last forever in your machine, unless you neglect the rod bolts like i did. there are other rods available, but these are commonly used in highly-stressed race motors here in the states:

    http://www.mapcycle.com/categories/...p7061-triumph-t120-6-5-h-beam-4340-steel.html
     
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  11. Sundance

    Sundance Well-Known Member

    Aug 2, 2021
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    Those are some crazy photos of blown motors. Are any of them yours? All?! I finally found a supplier of rod bolts for my existing rods, it was JRC. I gave them a direct call, and while they only do wholesale, the gent on the phone said he would send me a set. Now to see if I will use them or go for new rods.
     
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  12. speedrattle

    speedrattle Senior Member

    Feb 19, 2021
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    thats my 650 race bike. one rod bolt unscrewed and i blew the motor between the mile and the mile and a half.

    lost the rods, pistons, cylinders, two valves and two guides. was able to save the crank and the head. robbed some crankcases from another machine, transferred everything over, and im still running the bike.

    but rods and rod bolts are a major blow up when they fail. i dont risk it anymore. not worth it.
     
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  13. Sundance

    Sundance Well-Known Member

    Aug 2, 2021
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    Some Tappet advice needed. I had thought that 3 or my tappets were the “R” type and 1 was not. Well, after carful inspection I can make out an “R” on all 4 tappets. So I suppose the means the previous builder was consistent. This being the case, the exhaust tappets do not have a machined cut away space with an oil hole. My engine is from 1969 and I thought that this meant it should have the exhaust tappets with the machined flat area and an oil hole, which should face out on assembly of the exhaust tappets. Do I have my facts straight?

    Also, I am wondering if the case halfs are from different engines? As I put the cases together the casting doesn’t seem to match. As to the oiling of the exhaust tappets again, on the right side case, the exhaust tappet oil feed drillway is plugged. So perhaps this is why the exhaust tappets have no cut out and oil hole. Perhaps stranger again is that the cylinder (An old Routt big bore) does not seem to have an exhaust tappet oil feed drillway that would correspond with the drillway in the case. If any members can shed some light on this tappet sling question I’d appreciate it. From what I’ve read, the 1969 engine should have the exhaust tappet oiling system.

    Thanks!

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  14. darkman

    darkman Crème de la Crème

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    Its common practice for some engine tuners/manufactures to mix and match R and non R lifters to achieve desired lift/duration and not an issue as even Triumph ended up deleting the exhaust oil feed on later engines with the advent of better materials/metal treatment being used, I block the front tappet feed on all engines i build these days. At this stage it would be best to grind or replace your tappets/lifters and the cases shape wise all differ over the years but all factory cases have matching numbers stamped on the lower frame bolt lugs.

    s-l1600 (12).jpg
     
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  15. speedrattle

    speedrattle Senior Member

    Feb 19, 2021
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    what did you use to get the tappet blocks out with? theres a tool for that
     
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  16. Sundance

    Sundance Well-Known Member

    Aug 2, 2021
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    Darkman, thank you. I took a look at the cases and yes, they have matching numbers. So it looks like I will be OK to leave the front tappet feed blocked on my engine case. Also on the tappets - it turns out all of those from my engine have the R designation. From my review of the engine manual, however, it looks like the exhaust tappets should have a machined cut out and small hole in the stem of the tappet. All of the tappets from my engine look like intake tappets. So with the front tappet oil feed hole blocked does one need the exhaust tappets with the machined cut out and small hole in the stem?

    IMG_1575.jpeg
     
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  17. Sundance

    Sundance Well-Known Member

    Aug 2, 2021
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    Speedrattle - I purchased a tool from Lowbrow Customs - made the job easy.
     
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  18. darkman

    darkman Crème de la Crème

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    Its only some aftermarket cam makers that spec R for both inlet and exhaust on unit 650's so use what your cam maker specifies with your current cams. Don't concern your self about the oiling as even i block off the feed to the front lifter block with standard cams just as Triumph did with later engines. If you decide to go with standard cams 70-9989 ex and 70-3134 in cams are best overall for street use with R inlet and non R ex.
     
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  19. speedrattle

    speedrattle Senior Member

    Feb 19, 2021
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    you dont need the tappet oil feed with your megacycle cams. did ypu mark the orientation front and back when you took the tappets out?
     
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  20. Sundance

    Sundance Well-Known Member

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    Unfortunately, not. Only left/right. What kind of problem might this provoke?
     
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