Brakes Just Wondering

I reckon its looks and manufacturers trying to keep the cost down by banking on "modern classic" owners being old fogeys like me, and unlikely to push the performance envelope.

I think my Street Cup is little under-braked a the front, but not dangerously so. And given that there's not a lot of weight difference in percentage terms between the 900cc Bonnies and the 1200cc Bonnies you'd have thought they'd give them all twin discs (which I personally prefer the look of).

 

The two Street Scramblers I had had a single front disc and 4 pot calliper with more than enough stopping power, even using just two fingers. My 1200 Scrambler weighs around the same and has twin front discs with twin two pot callipers. They are no better collectively than those on the SS but still well up to the job.
Sure, the 1200 is quicker and any bike can be ridden “enthusiastically” of course but these are not sports hacks. With the modern classics I reckon the main factors are the price, where the bike sits in the range and to a degree, looks although I’m not sure where upside down forks fit in here!
As far as badges go, personally I’m not fussed wether a bike has Brembo, Nissin, Ohlins, Showa etc etc as long as the kit does the job. Maybe it’s the Yorkshireman in me but I just can’t see the point in buying Armani pants when Matalan will cover my ass just as well.

 

You raise some interesting points, Mark, and I find them particularly pertinent given that one of the reasons I chose the T120 over the T100 was the twin discs at the front (not the only reason, mind). Does it matter in reality, given the speed I tend to ride? To some extent not, but it’s a heavy bike and it can go some if you let it. Probably a sensible upgrade, therefore.

All of that said, I do feel a lot of Triumph design decisions are cost-based, particularly when it comes to brakes, suspension, wheels/tyres, etc. Not so sure it has much to do with honouring original design cues, if I'm honest.

 

I was banging on about the single disc set up on my Street Twin within a couple of months of owning it in 2017. With me on board it weighs around 280-290kgs. Add a bit of luggage and that'll pass 300. I don't carry a pillion but if I did...
It will easily crack 100mph. Of course I rarely do that but yesterday, on my way back from Brighton (to watch the rugby, England women vs Australia) I was happily doing 75-80 on the M6.
No the Bonneville isn't a sports bike and I wasn't riding it like a sports bike.

My point is of course that a bike of that weight, capable of that speed, needs twin discs, the single disc is just about adequate. But 'adequate' isn't good enough.
The first revision of this model saw Triumph move to a Brembo caliper, with the suggestion that this was an improvement. I've no idea of how much but clearly they thought the initial set up wasn't acceptable.

As I've said before, I have two 400cc Hondas from the 90's. They weigh far less than the Bonneville but their stopping power from the double-disc set up is amazing.
I've looked at various ways of upgrading the front brake. First thing I did was change the pads. After giving up with plans to change the disc + caliper I switched the master cylinder from 11mm to a 12.7mm. That has helped. But Triumph really should fit a better and safer front brake.

 

I picked up a new T120, Twin front discs are a must for me.
Few years back I had a BM GS1200 LC (twin discs). I decide to get a smaller pre reg 650 BM just for local shopping. Even at 20mph the single disc job felt unsettling going down our local steep hill compared to the twin disc GS. The 650 didn’t last long at all.

 

my recently acquired speedmaster has twin disc's and I would say they are adequate they might have brembo stamped on the calipers they certainly don't stop like brembos I have had on other bike's.

 

Most modern bikes apart from the small capacity machines must surely be heavy enough and capable of enough speed to warrant twin discs. It would certainly be something that I would want. Not Triumph, but when I rode a NC750X for a week on Gran Canaria one of the things that I really disliked about it was the single front disc, the brakes were not great and even juddered slightly under hard braking (not the ABS activating) - I see that the new model has a twin front disc so it must have been something that was acknowledged as needing to be sorted.

My Street Triple has incredible stopping power and a lovely feel through the brakes, it's very confidence - inspiring knowing that you can get stopped safely and in short order if you need to. Although I wouldn't expect a modern classic to behave like a Striple as it's a very small, light machine, I would want brakes that gave me that same confidence on whatever I purchased if it was a modern bike.

 

Good brakes not only have excellent stopping power but good feel. Different riders can also rate braking performance very differently. Someone with hands like shovels and fingers like bananas may stand a bike on its nose with two fingers whereas someone of smaller stature with pixie fingers will need a big handful to do the same.
Even “mediocre” modern brakes are a far cry from those of the 70’s/80’s when manufacturers could get away with a sticker on the forks informing the rider that, basically, the brakes are crap!

 

I replaced my brake caliper with a Harrison 6 pot caliper, you do not need to change the master cylinder, as the caliper is calibrated to the master cylinder. Was very hesitant about spending £250 on the off chance that it would be better. I need not have worried, it's brilliant. The 1st time I braked, it was like hitting a brick wall, it's very powerful.
https://www.billet.co.uk/

 

Incidentally the new(ish) 400's from Triumph have a single disc but are fitted with a 4-pot caliper, as opposed to the 2-pot on my ST.
I don't know if the newer Speed Twin 900 and T100 still have 2-pots but if they have I think it's a serious safety issue (a bit like the crappy Pirelli tyres originally fitted).

 

The new 2025 Speed Twin 900 now has a 4-pot radial caliper and larger 320mm diameter floating disc. Still only a single disc but the brakes seem powerful enough.

 

The cast iron hard chromed oem disc brake on my T160 Trident I owned in the 70's was lethal in the wet with a significant lag before it worked.

 

I would love that on my 70s 400four..to hell with the its not standard crowd. They wouldn't be saying that if they stacked it into a wall due to non existent brakes.

 

@Pedro1340
That looks really beautiful,
In the 70s I had a 250N, not only needed more pots but the original pads were useless in the wet. 70mph in the pouring rain, 30+ yds before anything happened. Permanently clearing the water off the disc on a very wet trip.
That week Honda came out with new Sintered(?) pads - fitted. Oh boy the difference.

 

Lol thankfully I haven't tried braking in the wet with the 400four, personally I would have it in the living room as a display piece. .

 

That's without a shadow of doubt a stunning bike.
This is for the bike .
Sadly not for you

 

I rest my case.

I would love to have this discussion with the Triumph technicians/engineers/designers, whoever, that came up with the 2-pot single disc idea in the first place. It's a shame that's never going to happen.