Hi Guys, I wanted to ask for your help with some issues with my recently acquired 2004 Daytona 600 with 47k miles on the clock. Brief summary, I found this bike as a quick sale/'sold as seen' by a dealer (most likely a trade-in he wanted to make a quick small profit on) which was rough round the edges but everything seemed ok and only had 2 previous owners and good service history. So I went for it. I collected it and took it straight to a garage to renew the MOT which it passed. Now I had to ride it home 17 miles across London through the centre in Saturday traffic. After setting off and trying to familiarise myself with riding a sports bike I thought the temp reading was a little high in the 90's C and when stopping in traffic/lights it often went over 100 C and about 102 before the fan kicked in and I remember it getting up to 107/109C once or twice. Once moving I opened it up a bit and the temp would come down. About 12 miles into the journey I saw a bit of what appeared to be steam coming out from under the seat - I pulled over and shut it off then heard a sound like a kettle boiling coming from the rear cowl cover for about 10 seconds. I left it for half an hour time to cool down. On starting it again the temp display was in the 40's C so I set off again and same pattern of temp rising and falling in line with stop/start traffic and riding speed. Everything else seemed fine no power loss, no smoke no warning signs/lights on the dash. When I got home the same thing happened I heard a sound like water boiling/bubbling with a bit of steam coming out of the rear fairing. I opened the cowl and saw the lid on the expansion tank was open and there was some tan/brownish liquid spitting out and the same coloured stains on the expansion tank neck and some spots in the rear storage area. I parked the bike in my garage and left it till the next day. I did some google research and Daytona 600's supposedly run hot and the fan is set to come on at/over 102C. I found a page with a comment that a Triumph factory mechanic stated they should be ok right upto 120C! Next day I briefly checked it over again; oil level was showing on the lower part of the dipstick, oil was dark but no signs of contaminants or odd smell, no signs of any leaks on the bike or cardboard I had parked it on. There were some tan/brownish stains in the rear storage area and on the expansion tank neck but I can't remember the level in the tank. I put the lid back on and got ready to start it up. It started on the button - I think there was an initial dark puff of smoke out the exhaust but it didn't continue and it ran at increased idle - warm up I guess, and the temp reading started to rise on the dash. After some time the revs decreased and remained steady. The exhaust looked/smelt normal and revving it seemed ok with the revs increasing as expected - the exhaust would put out a puff of greyish smoke now and again when revving. But again I didn't think nothing out of the ordinary for a mature bike. After running it and the temp showing 90 C I shut it off and checked around for leaks or anything but found nothing. The expansion tank seemed normal so I left it. Due to work I didn't have a proper chance to ride it but was starting it as before twice a week with the same observations. I then went on holiday for 6 weeks and in that time it wasn't started. When I got back I went to start it straight away and it started on the button as previously going to its increased idle and the temp gauge starting to increase. When the revs decreased to a lower idle I revved it and then white smoke started coming out of the exhaust! I revved it a few more times to see if it would clear, but no on some revs white smoke puffed out and bellowed like from a fire other times it puffed out like steam and dispersed almost immediately. I turned it off and left it. I tried it again after a few days and same scenario. Was it making me feel guilty for leaving it for 6 weeks? A few days later I came back to start investigating. Oil seemed ok as before. Then I checked the rear expansion tank and it seemed empty! Then I opened the radiator cap and it was empty. Where has the water gone??? No don't say it!!! Then as I removed the thermostat housing a flood of brownish water came out. There was some brown staining & bluish crystallisation on the inside of the housing but nothing major I thought. The outside of the thermostat had the same brownish staining but the thermostat was stuck and refusing to come out. After a couple of yanks with some pliers it came out and on the inside there was what looked like clear water - plain water? My initial thought was the thermostat had failed as if the water on the outside was brownish in colour I would expect the same for the water sitting inside the block. At this point there doesn't yet seem to be any evidence of cross contamination between oil & water I will need to investigate further; airbox, crankcase breather, plugs, cylinders. I will post Part 2 tomorrow - To Be Continued.......
Sounds to me like a very poorly maintained cooling system and possible head gasket failure. You won’t necessarily get oil contamination, I didn’t, I just had combustion gasses pressurising the water jacket and boiling over. You may be lucky if you just do some maintenance and flush and refill the system with new coolant. I’d also replace the thermostat. Good luck with getting it sorted mate.
I agree with prev posts, suspect this may be head gasket failure/damage, I've done the head gaskets on 2 cars for family members, both of which kept failing emmisions tests at mot, but neither showed any signs of cross contamination between the engine oil and the coolant, a compression test revealed all! It also sounds like the coolant has never or been very poorly maintained, with just tap water! Anti freeze is also a corrosion inhibitor, (bit like the stuff they put in your central heating system to stop the steel rads rusting, and then sludging the system up and knackering your boiler!) Given the vast array of metals used in a bike engine, it's why I change mine every couple of years, and only use filtered distilled water, and anti freeze, mixed at whatever ratio the bike's manual suggests.
If you're still here grab a beer & crisps as this is going to be a long one. Cooling System. Yes it looks neglected and I suspect perhaps the dealer may have just tipped water in rather than doing a proper flush & refill as that costs money I cleaned up the thermostat and gave did the boil test and it started to open at about 85C Airbox. Having removed the side & front panels and removed the tank (which didn't have either of the 2 drain hoses) I was greeted by the following loose connector; I looked around for a lonely empty connector somewhere but didn't find one. I noticed the loose connector looks identical to the airbox air temperature sensor connection which was connected and coming from a different part of the wiring loom. The bike had had its datatool alarm removed and the wiring loom is tatty in places with additional wires and wrapped up with electrical tape. I moved onto the airbox and noticed a lack of; drain hose, secondary air injection feed hose & breather hose - all 3 hose connections on the left of the base had nothing attached and one removed this is the view; Looks like a fairing screw moonlighting as a drain hole plug. I assumed the worst but the air filter was in good condition and the inside of the airbox was clean and dry. Coils. I removed the coils to find the body has been wound with what looks like electrical tape. Perhaps to cover some sort of deterioration or damage of the body/housing? Also around the top some sort of gunk like contact adhesive - did someone previously glue them in the top OR an attempt to glue the top cover to the rubber shield mat at the top; Spark Plugs. Plug 1 oily on the tip, thread and base washer - the tip left a dark stain on the newspaper where I placed it; It had more oil on the thread which formed a droplet which landed on the newspaper. Plug 2 normal looking with a bit of oil around the base washer; Plug 3 quite blackened/sooty electrode and oil on the base washer and a third up the thread; Plug 4 more 'normal' than no. 3 but same oily characteristics; continued......
Cylinders & Piston Tops. With the spark plugs removed I took the opportunity to stick a cheap USB endoscopic camera into the holes and see what we could see! Cylinder 1 - the plug recess certainly looks nasty with a dark brownish gunk at the bottom with characteristics of an oil & water mix; The top of the piston is black and shiny wet looking; Cylinder 2 - the plug recess similarly dirty like 1 but not as bad; The top of the piston is black but not shiny like 1; Cylinder 3 - the plug recess has a little bit of dirt but looks the cleanest of the lot; The top of the piston is blackened/sooty but looks the best so far; Cylinder 4 - the plug recess is gunky and somewhere in between the condition of 1 & 2; The top of the piston looks the best of the lot as there is metal visible; Compression Test. Having charged the battery it was time to do a compression test. Engine cold & all plugs out. Cylinder 1 - 160 psi Cylinder 2 - 155 psi Cylinder 3 - 155 psi Cylinder 4 - 160 psi Questions. My previous mechanical experiences have been on cars, mopeds(50-180), geared 125/200 and a Honda CB1. This my first sports bike experience which is new to me and all advice greatly appreciated. So I guess I would like to know; 1. The loose connector - is it to something other than the air temperature sensor? If no, is there a reason why there is another connection coming out of the loom in a different place to it? If the original connector broke or wire/cable went bad and a new one was spliced into the loom - why leave the old one? 2. Missing fuel tank drain hoses - I suppose no material impact on anything unless you experience an event which requires fuel to drain from the outlets. Then you have petrol dripping/flowing onto a leg & hot engine - if that's what rocks your boat ;-) 3. Missing airbox hose connections - any reason why a mechanic might do this? (a bodge for any particular symptom?) And would it have an immediate impact on anything? 4. Patched up coils - I guess over time the plastic body may deteriorate and crack or split and be patched up. Is this perhaps a common thing or should I removed the red tape to investigate? The gunky residue - and attempt to glue the top rubber 'bung' to the top or the recess to form a seal? Why? 5. Have I bought a ? Next Steps. I was thinking of giving the cooling system & radiator a serious refurb with good flushing, cleanout, new thermostat and refill with correct coolant. At the same time an oil service. Then running the engine without any fairing on and seeing what happens - at the exhaust & expansion tank. Then doing a combustion gas leak test at the radiator cap & expansion tank end. After that..... hopefully I'll be out riding it!!!!! What do you guys suggest? Thx, Mark
That's fairly comprehensive Mark Unfortunately I have no skills in this department but there are many others who do, I'm sure they will be along soon to give you the benefit of their wisdom
The plug i cant help with, the oil on spark plug thread could simply be from a weeping cam cover gasket, the wet looking cylinder could be a bit of oil from a worn valve guide seal or oil control ring, Coils do break down with age and the tape could simply be an attempt to stop any acing. By all means flush the cooling system then refill with proper mix the absence of coolant additives will see higher than normal temps but not by much, replace the thermostat but normal engine temps will see coolant temps of 90 to 110c as the oil also needs to reach at least 90 to 100c to evaporate water vapor and gasses so the oil temps will be higher. I would try a sniffer test on the coolant once its been refilled and run for a while that will tell you if there are any combustion gasses present.
Thanks for your reply. My cold compression test numbers look reasonable and should bikes be tested when warm to reach a more conclusive indication? Any thoughts on the missing airbox hose connections and whether they could have any material impact?
Cold compression will still give a pretty accurate impression of cylinder seal but i usually run a warm/hot test too but you shouldn't seen a great difference, a leak down test will always give a much better idea though. As for the filter box hoses it just means that the carbs have been sucking in unfiltered air wont really make much difference to the mixture.
Hi I was wondering if you ever resolved your white smoke issue. I have the same problem on my Daytona. Done everything to it but cant solve it, wondered if you ever did?
Hi, It's still work in progress as when I investigated the cooling system I decided to overhaul it aswell. Then I got occupied by work and its been sitting since. I'm hoping to get back to it in the next few weeks. My plan is to reassemble and try it. Then to use 'combustion leak tester' to see if there are exhaust gasses present in the coolant/cooling system. Thanks, Mark
Hi Yep life gets in the way. I've had my issue for 3 years, mines a 3 cylinder 955i. Finally got round to new valve stem seals, head gasket, although old one showed no sign of failure, checked head and block, both dead flat. Just a white residue in no 3. Put the engine back in. 210 psi on all 3 cylinders. Leak down test showed less that 15% on all 3. I still have honing marks on the liners, at 19,000miles. Exactly the same. No impact on performance, just disappear in a cloud of white smoke at traffic lights, and loose a little coolant. Cylinder sleeves are the next thing, as they can become unsealed, but really that would mean coolant leaking into the crank, not combustion. Everyone says "don't ride it the head gaskets gone" but it hasn't. Triumph mechs all scratch their heads. If I ever find out what it is, I'll let you know. I hope you've got another bike, this weathers awesome. Good luck.
Right I finally got my arse into gear and into the garage. The Daytona has been sitting with fuel tank & airbox off, coil packs off, battery out and cooling system assembled (no thermostat) but empty. I re-assembled up to the airbox and removed the filter. I checked the oil level then in the upright position jiggled the bike left & right a number of times. Then I hit the starter for a couple of short blasts and the oil light went out. Then a few blasts of engine start into the airbox I hit the starter and it wanted to fire up but instead puffed out some blueish smoke from the exhaust. A few more tries with more blasts of engine start and it fired up but running rough - I kept it running for about 15 seconds then turned it off. Next I drained the old fuel from the tank by unclipping the hoses and holding over a jug repeatedly cycling the ignition until no more was being expelled. New greased up O-rings on the couplings and tank was back on. A jug of fresh fuel and time to give it another go. Holding the bike upright, hit the starter and 3 seconds it wants to fire up but not quite. Try again and it fires up! Sounds like its clearing it's throat - then a bit rough then it's idling! Then the idle drops a bit and it sounds fine. I check around and no visible leaks or anything untoward. But it's smoking! Lightly like a car on a cold morning - I cover the exhaust with a cloth and have to press hard - I do hear some hissing but the engine does stall after about 10 seconds. The cloth doesn't smell of anything - it just seems like steam. I hit the starter and it fires right up again. Brief twists of the wrist and the smoke does increase (as expected) and is dense - probably as more of it. Anyway, have I mentioned there's no coolant in the system and the expansion tank is off? I didn't run it for long. Next steps; 1. Clean expansion tank & refit. Fill up with water and run up to temperature and see what happens. 2. Combustion leak test. 3. ? This depends on the outcome of 2, but any suggestions welcome. QUESTIONS: * Will an unplugged cooling fan trip the EML? (Doh! I forgot to connect it when fitting the rad) * Should the fuel warning light come on when you turn on the ignition and the instrument panel finishes it's 'boot up' sequence? * What can I flush the orange gunk/staining out of my expansion tank with? I've tried cola/vinegar/caustic soda but none of those seem to have touched it - even after poking a small screwdriver in and scratching around the gunk a bit.
HELP!!! Ok can someone explain this to me.... Today I re-connected the fan connector and to do this I initially tried to loosen the radiator and connect both ends but this wasn't possible. Then I removed the fuel tank and airbox and while I was there I thought I would re-fit the rubber sheet/cover which hooks onto the small post on top of the radiator and goes up over the rocker cover - to do this I had to unplug some connectors and remove the coil packs. The re-connect everything. Then airbox back on, fuel tank back on. So we have a Daytona without a thermostat and cooling system filled with around 1.8 litres of water. I hit the starter and it fires up, the revs go up then drop to a fast idle. I look at the exhaust and there is NO white smoke just a gentle haze. Instrument panel shows neutral & EML light on and temp is rising in the 40's and the revs have dropped to a normal idle. I leave it running and after about 3 minutes the fuel warning light has come one and EML light has gone out with temp now rising in the 50's. After 5 minutes there is some white smoke which increases momentarily with twists of the throttle and the temp is in the 60's. Looking around the bike all seems ok apart from slow 2 water dribbles from the front of the radiator - one on the right in the solid metal surround and on the left where the fins meet the surround. I turn it off and top up the water at the radiator then the expansion tax to just under the MAX mark. I hit the ignition and it fires right up to a fast idle which then settles and drops shortly after. Temp is showing in the 50's and rising. Now it is smoking white smoke a bit - I leave it running until the temp is showing over 70 and I rev it a bit then hold it steady at 3000. There is white smoke coming out the exhaust but I would say it is variable/puffy. Then I let off the throttle and let it return to idle, temp is showing 80, 2 radiator leaks as before and one of the rear bulb is rlickering on/off (turns out the bulb filament has gone). I decide to run it to raise the temp over 100 to test that the fan comes on and see if anything else.... Again raising the revs to 3000 and then brief blips to 4000 the temps increase - 70,.. 80,.. it seems to hang around 90 and I have a look around the bike - 2 leaks in radiator as before, gentle amount of white smoke coming out the exhaust, fan off. Temp goes above 90 but all as before. Temp hits 100 then last I remember it was showing 104 - everything as before, 2 radiator leaks as before, water in expansion tank at the same level just below MAX and sitting there still. I check the fan and it is running. I turn it off and thats enough for today. Tomorrow I'm going to drain and refill the cooling system. QUESTIONS: * Why didn't it smoke when first started? * Does anybody know of a UK supplier that does combustion leak test kit for motorbikes? The reasonably priced ones I have seen so far come with 'bungs' which are too large for a motorbike radiator. And I'm in no financial position to even think about getting a professional kit which comes with 5 different sized bungs. Answered questions from last post; 1. EML light is now out with radiator fan connected so perhaps YES. 2. Fuel warning light seems to come on 3-5 minutes after start-up. 3. Wire coat hanger and wet wipes seems to be the only way to clean orange gunk out of the expansion tank. Thanks.
Hello, If you mean the sometimes white smoke - not yet. I have been lazy and it has been cold so I did not spend time in the garage. Last time I went to start it - no white smoke but after 5 minutes it started 'spitting' little plumes of smoke from under the fuel tank by the frame. I have investigated and found that my stator connector has melted! I have posted another thread. Do you have a similar white smoke issue? Thanks.
Did you ever find out about the plug? I have the same plug lying dormant, i bought the bike as a project and none of the two plugs were plugged into airbox so was wondering if you knew which one did?
Hello, I never followed it up as the bike starts and revs seemingly ok. What are the wiring colours on each plug?
