(solved) 97 Daytona T595 Misfires Past 4k Rpm

Discussion in 'Technical Help' started by Guztaw, Jul 21, 2020.

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  1. Guztaw

    Guztaw New Member

    Jul 12, 2019
    19
    3
    Sweden
    Hello, forum!

    As usual, when I post on here I am all out of ideas... Let me walk you through my troubles I've had the past 3 weeks and hopefully, you'll get an idea of what might be wrong!

    The bike always starts up and idles without hesitation.

    The first 20-30 minutes of riding the bike run beautifully. Responsible on the throttle, full power all the way through the RPMs. But at some point after 20-30 minutes the bike starts acting up.

    It only runs smooth between 2k rpm and 4k rpm. Anything outside that is just misfires (and a lot of backfiring). The throttle cant be opened more than just a few millimeters at a time as it will bog down the engine if opened more. It still idles fine but can only be revved to about 4-5k rpm, then the misfiring starts to happen.

    I am able to ride the bike back home if I'm careful with the throttle and keep the bike between 2 and 4k rpm...

    I have checked all the wires, tubes, and hoses at least five times and to my understanding, it all checks out. I replaced the crank positioning sensor as the symptoms of a faulty one matched mine. Both the new one and the old one read the same resistance and it is within spec. I haven't gotten TuneECU to work as the cable I own probably has the wrong chipset so I haven't been able to check things such as the Throttle Position Sensor. I also have no nearby Triumph Dealer to get it scanned.

    Hopefully there are some triple wizards still on this forum that are able to help with this annoying problem. If there is anyone I can reach out to over email or Facebook(?) that would be great. Thanks
     
  2. Tricky-Dicky

    Tricky-Dicky Crème de la Crème

    Dec 12, 2016
    2,444
    1,000
    Norfolk UK
    Sounds like an airflow or air temp measurement problem so check those two sensors.
     
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  3. freck

    freck Elite Member

    May 4, 2017
    1,719
    750
    Preston, Lancs, UK
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  4. Gladtobebackontwowheels

    Nov 23, 2019
    398
    393
    Dover. UK
    As Tricky-Dicky says, those sensors could be faulty. It could also be coil related with one or more breaking down when hot. Unfortunately the only way to check that is to swap out the coils.
     
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  5. Guztaw

    Guztaw New Member

    Jul 12, 2019
    19
    3
    Sweden
    Are they affected by the heat? Feels like the air intake side is constantly fed with cold air?

    Feels like the coils are more exposed to the heat from the engine?

    Thanks for the suggestion! It might very well be one of those acting up!

    Cheers
     
  6. Guztaw

    Guztaw New Member

    Jul 12, 2019
    19
    3
    Sweden
    My gut tells me it's the coils... Ordered a set of three. I've seen tuned cars act the same way when the coils can't keep up!

    Cheers ✌️
     
  7. Gladtobebackontwowheels

    Nov 23, 2019
    398
    393
    Dover. UK
    Nice to hear of another 97 T595. :cool:
    Have you carried out any of the mechanical mods?
     
  8. Iceman

    Iceman Crème de la Crème

    Apr 19, 2020
    1,980
    1,000
    Lancashire
    Hi Guztaw, I'm with the other people who suggest a coil breaking down, I've had a few break down with symptoms you describe, you can pick up a S/H one fairly cheap from the internet, sandys spares for example. Hope you sort it soon.
     
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  9. Guztaw

    Guztaw New Member

    Jul 12, 2019
    19
    3
    Sweden
    Beautiful bikes when they work aren't they!

    Not sure if I understand you correctly but I have done a bit of modding!

    Aside from the usual as spark plugs, filters, oil and tires I have switched to a 2002 clutch, akrapovic exhaust, mirrors, tail tidy, led blinkers and a few paint corrections (fixed a few crackes in the plastic).

    Now it just sucks that I can't ride the damn thing for more than 20 minutes!

    Cheers
     
  10. Guztaw

    Guztaw New Member

    Jul 12, 2019
    19
    3
    Sweden
    Ordered a set of three on eBay for around 50 quid. As I live in Sweden they should arrive sometime next week. Keeping my fingers crossed until then!
     
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  11. Tricky-Dicky

    Tricky-Dicky Crème de la Crème

    Dec 12, 2016
    2,444
    1,000
    Norfolk UK
    Yes it could well be coils and i hope it is but coils usually brake down when the engine is loaded and it would be unusual for all to do so at the same time at the same RPM range ....engine heat does cause the insulation to eventually brake down and then the HT leaks to earth and will cause a misfire.

    The fuel injection works by referencing the air pressure/flow against RPM/load and uses air temp to scale the map but if temp sensor is faulty the default is to run fueling on the rich side for safety and if airflow scaling is out there is a similar result scanning the ECU for fault codes is really the only way to diagnose for sure.
     
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  12. Wire-Wheels

    Wire-Wheels Elite Member

    Apr 26, 2019
    2,481
    800
    California - USA
    #12 Wire-Wheels, Jul 21, 2020
    Last edited: Jul 21, 2020
    Sounds like the classic Triumph coil failure to me too. ...J.D.
     
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  13. Guztaw

    Guztaw New Member

    Jul 12, 2019
    19
    3
    Sweden
    Hope it is! New coils are already on the way ✌️
     
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  14. Wire-Wheels

    Wire-Wheels Elite Member

    Apr 26, 2019
    2,481
    800
    California - USA
    Let us know how it works out please. ...J.D.
     
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  15. D'Ecosse

    D'Ecosse Senior Member

    Jun 23, 2019
    270
    113
    CA, USA
    The stick coils on these are really not that unreliable (compared to say the older carb models or twins). Also unlikely that all three would suffer all at the same time and same symptom, OK when cold then all of them breaking down at temp.
    More likely than coils I suspect would be the crank position sensor
    First off, check it's gap - should be 1mm
    Then also check its resistance (I'll have to get back to you on that value tomorrow) - but you can at least compare resistance when it's cold and when its hot and has the problem.
     
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  16. Guztaw

    Guztaw New Member

    Jul 12, 2019
    19
    3
    Sweden
    Hi! I also feel like it is too consistent to be the coils... But I have already replaced the cps, checked gapping and recistance... According to the Hanyes Manual recistance should be 1300 (+-10) ohms and the gap should be between 0.8mm - 1.2mm. The same when warm... I'll replace the coils when they arrive! I'll keep this thread updated Thanks for your input!
     
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  17. D'Ecosse

    D'Ecosse Senior Member

    Jun 23, 2019
    270
    113
    CA, USA
    I was asked in PM about the effect of sensors - replying here so others can comment.

    You have three sensors that affect fueling
    1. The Engine (Coolant) Temperature Sensor - that one of course delivers a different temperature as the engine goes from cold to normal running temperature, but will still trim accordingly for the differences of normal high speed running (probably mid to high 80's), vs slow & go in traffic closer to 100)
    2. The Air Temperature sensor - this one is going to change less on any given day and biggest effected change would be in cold morning weather vs peak heat of the day. - in slow and go it can also be pulling hotter air from radiator and will account for that.
    3. The Atmospheric Pressure Sensor - this is going to vary depending on the atmospheric conditions - weather and altitude will make significant changes on any given day - for example where I live, I can go from sea level to 10,000 ft and back in a single day trip - air is much less dense at higher altitude.

    It's doubtful (but not impossible) that any of these would be a 'hot' factor where problem only shows up after 20-30 min running - the best way to check these is by connecting TuneECU and getting direct reading on-screen
    You didn't mention, so expect there is not - but presume you have no MIL (check Engine Light) when this problem starts to happen?

    Other possibilities that would be more prevalent at higher engine speeds vs - Fuel Delivery (low pressure from pump) or not enough air - blockage in the airbox - would not be fist time an air box has been opened to find mouse nest in there!
    Difference after 20-30 mins would be odd however for either of those, although could certainly be fuel pump issue that stops delivering full pressure after running for some time - the regulator itself is a mechanical device and won't be affected by time or temperature.

    You also asked about faulty gapped plugs - first question is, did you recently replace them and if so, was this in order to address the problem or did problem only happen after you changed them?
    If you haven't changed them, have you inspected them? What colour are they?
    Pull them when you change the coils, ideally post an image of what they look like.
     
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  18. Guztaw

    Guztaw New Member

    Jul 12, 2019
    19
    3
    Sweden
    First off, THANK YOU soooo much for sharing your knowledge with us on the forum! Would be lost if it weren't for you!

    Correct, no engine light. If the coils don't do the trick, I might as well order a new cable with the correct chipset to connect to TuneECU to make sure everything is in order! This started to happen after I changed the spark plugs but only after (maybe) the third ride... I'll be sure to post a pic of the sparkplugs when I get around to it. I'm out of town Thu-Wed, the coils should have arrived when I come back!

    I'll update you at the end of the week! Cheers
     
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  19. Tricky-Dicky

    Tricky-Dicky Crème de la Crème

    Dec 12, 2016
    2,444
    1,000
    Norfolk UK
    The fact that the engine only runs well between 2k and 4k RPM says to me there could be a problem with the crank position sensor or possibly the TPS is out as the ECU uses RPM vs air flow/pressure and TPS for load the other sensors are just for scaling of global fueling.
    At those RPMs/load the fixed map will be active so if overall scaling is out it could also effect ignition advance/retard as there should be secondary fallback maps for ignition advance linked to load.
     
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  20. Guztaw

    Guztaw New Member

    Jul 12, 2019
    19
    3
    Sweden
    The CPS has already been swapped out. Both the old and the new one read with spec and was mounted correctly (to my understanding and according to my Haynes Manual). Why would the TPS fail after a short period of riding tho?

    Is the "fixed map" used the first 10-30 minutes of riding? If that's the case then maybe the air sensors?

    Cheers
     
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