Dealer sale showing Insurance Theft??

Discussion in 'Triumph General Discussion' started by gazzatheyid, Jan 30, 2017.

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  1. gazzatheyid

    gazzatheyid Senior Member

    Dec 22, 2016
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    #1 gazzatheyid, Jan 30, 2017
    Last edited: Jan 31, 2017
    Hi guys,

    Was showing going to show you my potential pride and joy and thought I'd better double check the background before completing the payment.

    The autotrader checks are not there where they'd show you their background checks?? Sure they were clear before. And the MCN background check shows as insurance theft but not stolen and clear in every other category.

    Very strange can't do much until tomorrow in terms of contacting seller and dealer but all very strange. Can any body issue clarification on this?

    HPI site says this:
    Insurance theft
    Each year 150,000 vehicle thefts are recorded by insurers. The HPI Check will tell you whether a vehicle you are looking to buy has any outstanding insurance interest recorded against it, which may mean that you can't legally own it, however much you may ultimately pay for it.
     
  2. R_1000

    R_1000 Elite Member
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    Sep 2, 2016
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    I would pay the money and do a full independent check. You will need registration number, vin number, Current mileage, V5 serial number, V5 registration document issue date. I used hpicheck.com for my purchase.

    If this bike is some form of INSURANCE CATEGORY CLAIM....this would seriously devalue the bike. Vise versa when selling it you won't get the market value for it.

    All the best buddy
     
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  3. gazzatheyid

    gazzatheyid Senior Member

    Dec 22, 2016
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    Thanks pal.

    Shame MCN don't explain this when they took my tenner! Result though (of sorts) as the official hpi check automatically triggers an investigation there end. Sure the dealer has some responsibility to check this.

    Will post an update.
     
  4. gazzatheyid

    gazzatheyid Senior Member

    Dec 22, 2016
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    #4 gazzatheyid, Jan 31, 2017
    Last edited: Jan 31, 2017
    Thanks Dozer.

    Update this morning is advert shouldn't have appeared on autotrader in this form as potentially the info supplied wasn't complete.

    The dealer doesn't do Hpi checks as standard to save costs if they are buying from trusted sellers generally.

    Both parties are investigating and will let me know.

    Update 2: Potentially insurance haven't updated records so Experian are looking in to. Autotrader believe the dealer to be unaware and previous owner. Just awaiting result if investigation which will take a few days. In all likelihood they believe it will be Cat D.

    Glad I got that Hpi check!
     
  5. Rich Bryce

    Rich Bryce Dead Eye Dick

    Sep 18, 2015
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    As DD said, Cat 'D' merely means cosmetic damage but still safe to ride. Unfortunately having Insurance Write-Off in the history does knock re-sale values by around a third, ironically even though the cosmetics will often have been replaced with as good as if not better condition parts, and dealers won't touch it if they've done the check.

    I bought a Street Twin recently for £5k (£7.5k new), registered May 2016, written off a month later, 300-odd miles on the clock. The only damage, all cosmetic, cost the guy I bought it from £300 to repair with new OEM parts. Admittedly the clutch lever and bar end cover are still scuffed. Without Cat 'D' in the history I reckon he could have got close to £7k for an eight-month old almost as-new bike.

    AFAIK the first seller has to legally declare the vehicle has been a write-off, 'C' or 'D', but subsequent re-sellers do not have to. And even then, that may only apply to four-wheeled vehicles because, according to DVLA, there is no such thing as an official Cat 'D' for motorcycles - that is purely an Insurance Company convenience.
     
  6. gazzatheyid

    gazzatheyid Senior Member

    Dec 22, 2016
    271
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    Thanks guys for the advice.

    Long story and several calls between the parties have gone on. Investigations are still being carried out with Experian.

    The dealer believes this will just to be stolen recovered and will not affect the resale value massively and this will be reflected on the updated HPI he will try and request. In addition to the £400 discount he has offered (just below 10%) to make this 'a real bargain' and because I have been fair with them at trying to resolve this.

    But surely I have to declare this when I take insurance and this will show on a future HPI check? In the rare case it is just stolen recovered with no category I'm not sure how this will affect the price and insurance cover.

    However it has not been confirmed whether this will be a Cat C or D. I have been advised generally any insurance involvement will result in a cat certification. It's all a bit up in the air at the mo. I'm dubious to pay anything until this is resolved by Experian either way.
     
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  7. Rich Bryce

    Rich Bryce Dead Eye Dick

    Sep 18, 2015
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    #7 Rich Bryce, Jan 31, 2017
    Last edited: Jan 31, 2017
    Gazza, 'stolen recovered' merely indicates an insurance claim by the previous owner. Category 'C' and 'D' are write-off categories, stolen or not. A write-off means the cost of repair was more than the insurer deemed worthwhile. Cat 'D' means still safe to drive irrespective of the current cosmetics.

    So a stolen bike that has been recovered and not damaged beyond cost-effective repair does not get written off so no 'C' or 'D'. It's not such a rare event, especially with naked bikes that don't have fairings that are expensive to replace. And even if the insurer has already paid out on it, once recovered it should be removed from the Register. You should insist the dealer/Experian has this done, because it is now on there in error. After that you as a new owner are not required to declare it to anyone as 'stolen-recovered'. As far as the HPI Register is concerned it's as if it never happened. So the £400 discount isn't then a bad deal by the sound of it, not that you couldn't try for more given all the hassle.

    Does the bike have a service history with it? That's more important imo.
     
  8. gazzatheyid

    gazzatheyid Senior Member

    Dec 22, 2016
    271
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    Thanks Rich. So we are saying if this is stolen recovered (as the dealer states not experian or HPI yet) and if it wasn't for this error I would be none the wiser as to the previous stolen status (if it was never written off).

    Full service history apparently. Not sure how much more to ask for off though if this is the case.
     
  9. Rich Bryce

    Rich Bryce Dead Eye Dick

    Sep 18, 2015
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    Bikes are often stolen without being damaged, in order to be dismantled so the parts can be ebayed. The bikes aren't ridden or abused by joy riders. Some of these are recovered by police raiding the thief's premises, where some bikes sit waiting to be dismantled, so no harm done except maybe the lock's been broken and needs replacing. There is no good reason for those bikes to go on the HPI register and have their value reduced. But having already paid the owner for the loss the bike now becomes the property of the insurance company who offload it for pennies on the pound to a salvage company. The salvage company then list it as 'stolen/recovered'. A dealer buys it in order to tidy it up if necessary and to sell on at a profit. The dealer has been an 'Honest John' if he tells you its full history which he should do if he knows it, but still, there is no good reason other than perception for such bikes to lose value.

    If the bike doesn't look distressed, if the dealer has a good reputation, and all is above board and you were otherwise happy at the original asking price then it seems to me £400 discount is a good deal. Any more you can haggle out of him is a bonus. Depends how comfortable you feel haggling. This all assumes it has never been listed as Cat 'C/D' and it is deleted from the Register if it is listed as 'stolen/recovery'.

    All in my non-professional opinion of course. There would be no harm in getting an AA mechanic to check it over if you have any doubts about the dealer.
     
  10. R_1000

    R_1000 Elite Member
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    Sep 2, 2016
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    ^^++

    As Rich said now we know there is something off somewhere. ....No harm in getting a professional to check the bike out thoroughly and back it up with some form of paperwork. Haggle a little more say 485. So you can use the money to have it mechanically checked.
     
  11. gazzatheyid

    gazzatheyid Senior Member

    Dec 22, 2016
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    Thanks guys always good to have some others opinions and help as this has been a stressful experience to say the least. Thought it would be great picking my new bike haha

    Anyway, HPI have said the insurance have never been informed of the recovery so this needs amending before I can legally own it.

    Have gone back with a counter offer of an extra £100 on condition as per advertised with fsh, warranty etc and marker removed with no category status showing.
     
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  12. gazzatheyid

    gazzatheyid Senior Member

    Dec 22, 2016
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    Right the beer has been poured and I'm sitting comfortably! Has been a funny old day on this. At one point the deal was almost definitely off now it looks back on.

    Turns out from the dealers conversation with the insurance company that the original owner had the bike recovered after a pay out. They never fully repaid the insurance company before selling it on.

    The insurers informed me around lunch time they were taking possession of the bike. So that was that.

    Spoke to the dealer in the afternoon and he had negotiated purchase of the bike from the insurance and was still willing to go ahead with the deal. I've agreed the purchase on the condition all the paperwork on the matter is in order and is not cat C/D. What a saga! I'm going in person to collect so I'm hoping for a happy ending after all this!
     
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  13. Rich Bryce

    Rich Bryce Dead Eye Dick

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    Best wishes for a good outcome Gazza. We're all on tenterhooks here.
     
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  14. gazzatheyid

    gazzatheyid Senior Member

    Dec 22, 2016
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    Cheers guys at this point the discount will be honored.

    I did ring a Triumph dealer declaring my love for the new Striple and asking if this would have an effect on my p/x. They said it there would be some reduction in exchange value but no where near the Cat C/D range.
     
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  15. Rich Bryce

    Rich Bryce Dead Eye Dick

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    ... And that would only be if you told them about it, cuz once off the register no-one is any the wiser
     
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  16. gazzatheyid

    gazzatheyid Senior Member

    Dec 22, 2016
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    #16 gazzatheyid, Feb 1, 2017
    Last edited: Feb 1, 2017
    Apparently there is always some sort of marker as stolen recovered I was told?? I know we've been round the house with definitions and explanations.

    Very happy though if it goes and I don't need to declare.
     
  17. gazzatheyid

    gazzatheyid Senior Member

    Dec 22, 2016
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    Next issue is Q plate status? Apparently some insurers will ask and not touch them. Hastings who I was looking at specifically ask this.

    I'm also checking the VIN and V5 Serial Number tomorrow along with verifying the Triumph service. Any other checks you guys can think of? Thanks for all your input so far.
     
  18. gazzatheyid

    gazzatheyid Senior Member

    Dec 22, 2016
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    Not a clue if it will be! Apparently stolen/recovered can be classified as a Q with insurance?? I'm lost on this mate...

    And he won't buy the bike from the insurance until I'm there to process the sale after he's purchased. I have confirmed the details that a transaction is pending. This had made me a bit suspicious though on the marker. Need another call to them I think.
     
  19. gazzatheyid

    gazzatheyid Senior Member

    Dec 22, 2016
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    #19 gazzatheyid, Feb 2, 2017
    Last edited: Feb 2, 2017
    Any idea on the Q plate thing? Even the net is very sketchy on it? Another bike forum thread contributor says it's because its already been paid out on.

    http://www.gocompare.com/car-insurance/q-plates/

    Found this which says it's only if there is a doubt the VIN number matches. I just don't want a nightmare on my hands once the marker is removed if it gets categorised. argghhhh...lol
     
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  20. gazzatheyid

    gazzatheyid Senior Member

    Dec 22, 2016
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    If the engine number matches there should be no problem then. The whole transaction worries me for timescales though as it gives me little time to establish the marker.

    Will be cautious I think while I'm at the dealer and take a deep breath and be prepared to walk away I think if need be.
     
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