Starting Dilemma Tied To The Starter Solenoid

Firstly, based on many posts I have read regarding the Bonneville, the problem I am having is a perennial one that Triumph has never solved.

1. After about 7 years, I am having starting issues with my 2016 Bonneville T100 (only 3300 miles!). Even with a “good” battery (am now on my second new battery), the starting success is intermittent – mostly a fail: all I get are clicks at the starter solenoid.
2. Right out of the box, the 2nd new battery I’ve obtained (180 cca) tested at 12.97V. When installed, it started my motorcycle right away. After running for a minute, I shut it down and after a few seconds, started again. I may have done the once more and then it began failing again: I only got clicks at the starter solenoid. I tried to start the motorcycle again several times thereafter and same result: click at the solenoid !! The battery voltage held to at least 12.6V, which was good. For the hell of it, I had it tested at AutoZone and – unsurprisingly - it came back totally healthy. Then I attached jumper cables from my pickup and the motorcycle started right up !! When the cables were disconnected, it again failed: clicks at the solenoid

Finally, I jumpered across the 2 solenoid posts and it started right up !!!

I’m now doubting that the issue has anything to do with the battery per se.

So my question is:

Is it usual that a 2016 Bonneville with only 3300 miles on it would have a starter solenoid go south ??? My diagnostics are pointing to a failed solenoid.

 

Does anyone know where the “starter relay” is located? I am attaching a pic of what’s under my LH cover. What I have labeled at the Headlight relay is per p.17.23 of the service manual. Other pictures I’ve seen posted on the Internet have this labeled as the Starter relay. ???

I am attaching a series of pictures that describe what I have done since my initial post. Slide 3 is telling; something about these results is wrong.

My understanding is that the (referring to my slides), when the start button is pressed, the circuit across terminals 3 & 4 should energize the coil within the solenoid to internally bridge across terminals 1 & 2, allowing the current from #1 to flow to #2 and on down to the starter. I’m not sure how the “starter relay” is involved and the service manual offers nothing.

Having made the onboard tests I have documented, the only thing left to do is to remove the solenoid, and on the bench energize it while checking continuity/resistance across the #1 & #2 terminals. If I get no continuity, I will know that the solenoid coil is bad. If it checks out, then it may be something else (e.g., the starter relay).

I will post back later.

 

Time to update this thread (this refers to pictures on pictures on post #3):

When I speak of clicks on pressing the starter button, I verified that BOTH the Starter solenoid and Starter/Headlight Cut-out relay are clicking.

I removed these components and performed a complete bench test on both the Starter solenoid and the Starter/Headlight Cut-out relay. They checked out fine, as designed.

To assuage any comments on posts to simply replace the Starter/Headlight Cut-out relay, I did so and the persistent clicks continued without turning over the starter motor.

Another test is to remove the terminal at #3 and check voltage delivered (new battery showing 12.98V).

• With key on only, I get 0.0V
• As the starter button is pressed, I get 12.2V

But I got wondering: “Why remove #3 to make that reading? Why not get a reading with #3 connected to fully simulate what’s happening when the start button is presses?” I expected the same result as before but instead only got 0.32V. Does this tell us anything?

So, to recap:

A. I jumpered across the 2 solenoid posts (#1 & #2) and it started right up !!
B. To effectively bypass the Starter/Headlight Cut-out relay, I bridged across points #1 and #3 with the key on; it started right up !!
C. I attached jumper cables from my pickup and the motorcycle started right up !!

Having thoroughly tested the Starter solenoid and Starter/Headlight Cut-out relay on he bench, Points A, B, & C above best isolate and define the problem, and it seems to have more to do with brute force current (especially B & C) than anything else. Something somehow seems to be preventing adequate current from delivery to the starter. I’m starting to think more about the inscrutable ECM.

Finally, according to the ignition schematic (Service Manual, p.17.111), I might also mention that #4 (which should be a ground for that side of the relay) goes to the kickstand switch and then to the ECM. This may suggest that the ECM may something to do with the proper functioning of Starter solenoid.

 

PegScraper: thanks but I believe the following obviates you theory/suggestions.

In my last post, I wrote:

Having thoroughly tested the Starter solenoid and Starter/Headlight Cut-out relay on he bench, Points A, B, & C above best isolate and define the problem, and it seems to have more to do with brute force current (especially B & C) than anything else. Something somehow seems to be preventing adequate current from delivery to the starter. I’m starting to think more about the inscrutable ECM.

I put current in bold for a reason.

Note also that I wrote:

Finally, according to the ignition schematic (Service Manual, p.17.111), I might also mention that #4 (which should be a ground for that side of the relay) goes to the kickstand switch and then to the ECM. This may suggest that the ECM may something to do with the proper functioning of Starter solenoid.

I’ve been trying to get to causality. When I consider the 3 tasks that allow me to reliably activate the starter, it’s interesting that A&B (1&2) momentarily bypass the Starter/Headlight Cut-out relay, and possibly significantly, the ECM. I remain suspicious that the ECM – at least after 7 years of normal starting behavior – has decided to inspect not only for battery voltage but perhaps battery amperage output. That is what all the symptoms reported in this thread point to. I also note that, as near as I can tell (Triumph never bothered to mention this spec in its Service Manual of Owner’s Handbook), the OEM battery was rated at 180cca. The new AGM battery was so rated, but hasn’t been able to deliver reliable starts (more later).

Based on forums I’ve visited, the starting dilemma I’m reporting here has been experienced by Bonneville riders through out North America and Europe, and I suspect is well known to at least one guy at the Triumph factory in Hinkley. If that location was in America, I’d approach directly to find the real cause of this problem.

While not elucidating causality, but believing that the problem has most to do with current, my ultimate task yesterday was as follows:

I obtained a Li+ ion battery rated at 500cca to replace and AGM better rated at 180cca:
https://www.amazon.com/dp/B0CNT56YJL?ref=ppx_yo2ov_dt_b_fed_asin_title&th=1

When installed, the Bonneville started right up and I followed this with successive starts at approximately hourly intervals; I let it run for 2-3 minutes at a time. Note that during this time, the a Li+ ion battery was NOT on a charger. It began at 14.45V and after the 10th start last night, had dropped to 13.30V. I put the trickle charger on it overnight and it checked out at 14.50V this morning. And it started right up !!

This problem remains a dilemma in terms of real causality but I’ve followed symptoms to guide me in getting to a scenario that actually facilitated successful starts.

 

Pegscraper: I used the word “momentarily” and was referring to the action of the Starter/Headlight Cut-out relay and IT’S connections to the ECM. The ECM’s influence – whatever it is really is – comes momentarily through the pin on the Starter/Headlight Cut-out relay. That is clear from the schematic on p17.111 of the Service Manual.

The whole comment about the clutch, side stand and neutral switches being all part of the starter lockout circuit is obviated by the success I demonstrated with the 500A battery. Those are important variables in the equation but are demonstrably not part of the problem I have been describing.

 

PegScraper (7) - Your comment:

“The ECU, starter relay and the clutch, side stand and neutral switches are all part of the starter lockout circuit I mentioned so a fault in any of them could give the symptoms you have.”

is well taken. Old school that I am, I have never liked the clutch and side stand switches and have therefore removed them. Given all the potential obstacles to successful ignition, the fewer one can have - the better.

• Eldon (#9) – You may be onto something … perhaps from the starter button to #3.

• HelmutVisor (#10) – Yes but the new 500A battery only masked a symptom; the root cause is still elusive. Remember, for 8 years, everything was fine with a standard AGM battery. I have returned the Li+ battery and its special charger and reverted back to the new AGM.

• Pegscraper (#11) – No it is NOT battery voltage. With 12.6V is starts fine using any of the triad methods (A/B/C) described above. As I have demonstrated empirically, it’s closely related to CURRENT, which – as Eldon and others have suggested – may be related to some faulty connection leading to #3. I’m done tracing this problem; that should rightly be Triumph’s problem (if it were a professional mfg.).


This thread has gone on for 3 weeks and almost taken on a life of its own. With all of the gyrations and speculations by contributors (all of which is appreciated), nothing leads to the causality I have sought. I have pursued this dilemma on several other Triumph threads, including TriumphRat and TriumphTalk. The lengthy thread referenced on TriumphRat (last 4 pages) recognizes a flaw in the ECM by Keihin and describes a “bypass” procedure involving installation of a 1A diode! How complicated could this problem be; how complicated must a fix be? Quickly back to the ECM, I have said several times in this thread that I am suspicious of the ECM as being the root cause of the clicks dilemma with all but a 500A battery. For its later model bikes, Triumph chose to partner with China for its ECM. China is not known for the highest quality products worldwide. But I digress …


I have chosen this as the best, simplest and cheapest solution - which is based on ‘A’ of the triad:

I have ordered a 12V/50A push button starter switch that is moisture-sealed. I will tap into terminals #1 and #2 on the Starter solenoid and send leads (10ga stranded wire) to the switch, which I can cleverly mount on the left-hand cover in its upper right-hand area. Since I have already installed a handlebar toggle switch for the bright center headlight lamp, the Headlight Cut-out relay will not be needed, and in fact terminal #3 & #4 can be removed.

Next week, I plan to post a couple pictures of the finished result.

P.S.

It’s absolutely shameful that one spends $10,000 for a Bonneville T100 and have this absurd problem emerge after only 8 years, and unprofessional that Triumph hasn’t tuned into this and leaned into the problem.

 

As promised, I am here posting the ultimate solution with the new starter switch.

• One pic shows the leads attachment to the starter solenoid. (The 10ga terminal holes had to be opened a bit to accommodate the 6mm studs.) Note that I trimmed back the rubber boots; they only get in the way.

• The other pic shows the leads attached to the switch.

• The last pic shows the final result on the left-hand cover.

All this was done with about $5 worth of materials and less than an hour’s time in labor.

The Bonneville now starts reliably every time with a typical AGM (180cca) battery, with no delays, obstacles, hiccups, or those mysterious and nagging relay clicks !!

 

Thanks for your positive receptions Fartomany, and good luck to you if you need to do this on your Speed Triple.
I'm lovin' it !!!